The Rant Podcast
A bi-weekly podcast focused on pulling back the curtain on the American higher education system and breaking down the people, the policies and the politics. The podcast host, Eloy Ortiz Oakley, is a known innovator and leader in higher education. The podcast will not pull any punches as it delves into tough questions about the culture, politics and policies of our higher education system.
The Rant Podcast
Navigating the Next Four Years with John King
When higher education comes under attack, who stands up to defend its core mission? In this compelling conversation, Chancellor John King of the State University of New York brings his unique perspective as a former high school teacher, Secretary of Education under President Obama, and leader of a major education advocacy organization to address the most pressing challenges facing American universities today. Chancellor King doesn't mince words as he articulates how SUNY maintains its commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion despite political headwinds: "For us, diversity, equity, inclusion is in our DNA." He shares concrete examples of how SUNY serves 370,000 degree-seeking students while ensuring campuses remain places of belonging for everyone, regardless of background. The conversation takes a sobering turn when discussing research funding cuts threatened by the current administration. "It's a disaster for the country," King explains, detailing how the proposed $79 million reduction in NIH funding alone would devastate critical research on cancer treatments, Alzheimer's, and 9/11 first responder care. "Our international competitors are laughing at us," he notes, calling this a "willful dismantling of our competitive advantage. "Drawing on his experience as Education Secretary, King provides a masterful breakdown of the Department of Education's four essential functions – from supporting vulnerable students to protecting civil rights – and why dismantling it would harm America's future. He outlines potential areas for bipartisan progress, including thoughtfully designed short-term credential programs and renewed investment in research that could usher in "a golden age" of scientific advancement. For anyone concerned about the future of American higher education, this conversation reveals both the gravity of current threats and a path forward rooted in demonstrating value and serving communities. As Chancellor King advises emerging leaders, we must be "obsessed with demonstrating value" – both economic and civic – while building strong peer networks to navigate these challenging times.
Hi, this is Eloy Ortiz-Oakley and welcome back to the Rant Podcast, the podcast where we pull back the curtain and break down the people, the policies and the politics of a higher education system. In this episode, I get to sit down with a friend and colleague, the Chancellor of the State University of New York, john King. John has had a tremendous career service, beginning as a high school educator, spending time leading the education system in New York. He was the Secretary of Education under President Barack Obama and also led one of the nation's top education advocacy groups, the Ed Trust. Now, as the Chancellor of the State University of New York, he leads one of the most diverse and one of the largest public university and community college systems in the nation and one of the cornerstones of New York's higher education system. We talk about what's going on in the State University of New York, how he's dealing with the changes that this current administration is handing down to universities across the country, the challenges with the pullback in research funding, as well as the politics of Washington DC and the Department of Education. John has some unique insights and I know you'll enjoy my conversation with him. But before we get into all that, let me just take a moment to reflect on some of the issues that have come up since our last podcast.
Speaker 2:I recently had a chance to join John at the ASU GSV Summit and, as usual, it was an amazing event Lots of people, lots of new technologies, but, of course, the main show was all of the AI on display, all of the new technology focused on artificial intelligence and how it's powering a new, more personalized education system. There was a lot of great innovations that were on display and we'll see where this all leads, but AI was certainly at the top of the ticket. At the ASU GSV Summit, we also had a visit from Secretary of Education Linda McMahon. In addition to some of the other things that you may have heard about that she said at the SUGSV Summit, she focused on workforce and career readiness. This is going to be a focal point of her administration. You've already seen some of this action things like short-term Pell, improved access to career pathways, focuses on apprenticeships. All these issues are going to be front and center under her leadership, which is welcome news to many of us, and I suppose, since it did come from her, sounds like there will be a role for the Department of Education. We'll see. In any case, a lot continues to transpire.
Speaker 2:There was the attack on Harvard University with regard to the pushback on the Trump administration's demands and of course that prompted the Trump administration to put a jeopardy Harvard's nonprofit status. This plays out there's already some pullback from the Trump administration. But I will say this I'm usually not in a position to give Harvard University or most of the IREs any credit, but I will give credit where credit is due. I appreciate the leadership of Harvard standing up and pushing back on the ridiculous demands of the administration that would have undermined their academic freedom. That would have undermined their ability to be a top university in this country. So kudos to Harvard University. I hope that this is centered in a real learner-centered approach, but for now, thank you, harvard, for standing up to this administration on behalf of all of us in higher education.
Speaker 2:So with that backdrop, let me turn it over to my conversation with the Chancellor of the State University of New York, john King. Chancellor King, welcome to the RENT Podcast. Thanks so much. Excited to be here. It's great to see you, john. Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule there at the State University of New York.
Speaker 2:Let's jump into what's going on these days, and I know that things are moving quickly. So by the time that this podcast airs, who knows what will be going on? But let's just focus on what we know now. So let's start with how you and your SUNY team are responding to some of the challenges that have been coming out of this new administration. A new administration and let's start with the great work that you and the SUNY team have done building a university that's diverse, that focuses on equity and that's inclusive of the various backgrounds that make up the state of New York. How are you thinking about responding to some of the attacks, not just from the administration but from various groups throughout the country, on the importance of universities being diverse and equitable and inclusive? How are you and your team thinking about pushing back on some of those narratives?
Speaker 3:You know, for us diversity, equity, inclusion is in our DNA. We were founded more than 75 years ago with a clear charge from the legislature to ensure the broadest possible access and to serve all segments of New York, and so we're undeterred about those values because they're core to who we are. And so that means we have chief diversity officers on our campuses whose work is to help ensure that campuses are places of belonging for all students, and that's students of color, but it's also LGBTQ students, students with disabilities, veterans. We have LGBTQ students, students with disabilities, veterans. We have a diversity equity inclusion course requirement, so every undergraduate, before they leave SUNY, has to take a course that deals with themes of diversity equity inclusion.
Speaker 3:That could be a business student learning about the racial wealth gap. It could be a nursing student learning about maternal health disparities based on race, but we think that's important for preparing folks for civic life and we're going to continue to that work. We certainly are eager to make sure that we are serving a diverse student population that reflects all aspects of New York State. You know we are clear since the SFFA decision that we cannot use race in admission. We understand that, but we believe that we can build a class that represents New York, by looking at factors like low-income status, first-gen status, adversity students have overcome in their school or community. We prioritize recruiting veterans and AmeriCorps alumni. So for us, our values are unchanged and I personally, having started my career as a high school social studies teacher, I'm always going to talk about the importance of teaching the truth of our history, even the uncomfortable truths of our history.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it amazes me when people talk about some of these discussions being un-American. I can't think of anything more American than digging into what made us who we are today and looking at some of the challenges that we've faced. How do we improve society going forward and how do we make America stronger? Because, regardless of what people feel today, america was founded on immigrants Immigrants interacting with indigenous people, trying to build a nation that we have today. So learning more about who we are, I think, only makes us stronger going forward. So that's always confusing to me. It doesn't make us less American. I think it makes us more American.
Speaker 3:That's exactly right. You're exactly right. And look, I think it's dangerous to have this effort to hide or distort our history as a country. It's going to result in students who are less prepared to move the country forward, right.
Speaker 2:I'm glad that you're willing to talk about the mission of SUNY this way, because it was created to serve the state of New York, the people of the state of New York. The people of the state of New York and the people of the state of New York are diverse. They come from all sorts of backgrounds ethnic, racial, religious, cultural. That's what makes New York New York, and a state university system that's dedicated to serving all the people of New York can only make the state of New York stronger and more resilient and have an economy that, hopefully, is inclusive of everyone, regardless of that background. I think that's great for New York and that's great for the country, in my opinion.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and I'm grateful to have Governor Hochul and our Attorney General Tish James, real champions of those values who are ready to stand up to defend them.
Speaker 2:Now, within all the chaos and consternation over DEI and how do we serve, and as we think about free speech and anti-Semitism and all the things that are in sort of this stew of what's going on today, I think there is some truth that we have lost some confidence from the public Us as educators, particularly in higher education. We've sort of lost a high ground on value and containing costs. How do you deal with some of those challenges that truly need to be addressed within a university like SUNY, while not appearing to be caving to some of the criticism that you're getting?
Speaker 3:That's a great question. Look, we try to be very clear about who we are and what we do. You know we serve 370,000 students in degree programs. 370,000 students in degree programs. We see about 1.3 million students a year when you include our non-credit workforce development programs. So we are serving folks in every part of the state. 95% of New Yorkers live within 30 miles of a SUNY campus. We are contributing to upward mobility in the state. About one in three college alums in New York State is a SUNY alum. So we are helping prepare the workforce. Whether you're talking about healthcare or the semiconductor industry or cutting edge fields like artificial intelligence, the path is through SUNY. We also are very affordable.
Speaker 3:New York, like California, has maintained a real commitment to public higher education over time. The tuition at our four-year institutions $7,070 for the year is willing to invest. 52% of our students across our two and four-year institutions go tuition-free because of the Federal Pell Grant Program and the New York State Tuition Assistance Program, and we are helping students move from often difficult backgrounds to lives of opportunity right. A good number of our students are first in their family to go to college. They're from immigrant families, they're from families that are struggling economically and they're accessing the American dream. We also serve a tremendous number of middle-income students and more affluent students who represent, again, every aspect of New York.
Speaker 3:So folks need to know who we are and I think it's important for higher ed to stand up and talk about the reality of what we do. And we've also been very clear we're not going to have any tolerance for antisemitism on our campuses. We've done Title VI training to make sure that folks, all of our staff, all of our faculty, have gone through that Title VI training. We want folks to understand the civil rights importance of protecting students against discrimination, whether it's on the basis of religion or race. But at the end of the day, we're doing the thing public higher ed was meant to do at SUNY and I think the higher ed sector has been too much back on our heels and too much allowing some real errors in judgment. I think at some of the very well-resourced elite institutions, some of the IBs, allowing some of their mistakes to be used to justify an indictment of the entire higher ed sector.
Speaker 2:I couldn't agree more. I think there's been an institution there in New York that's been very prominent lately and I think a lot of us are wondering how they got where they are and whether or not they've made the right decisions going forward. But hopefully, hopefully, for the sake of their students they have. So let's talk more about SUNY. And for those who don't know SUNY very well, you have both four-year institutions. You have two-year community college institutions working together. You have research functions, you have medical functions. So the recent pullback, or the recent threats of pulling back, research funding, particularly NIH funding and other federal funding that goes to support the research functions at universities like the ones you have, that go to produce very important research that leads to innovations, that leads to new technologies, that leads to more jobs in states like New York how are you bracing for and preparing for some of those cuts in funding?
Speaker 3:Look, I think the administration's attack on research is a disaster for the country. It's bad for the economy, it's bad for national security, bad for the economy, it's bad for national1.2 billion a year in sponsored research, largely concentrated at our major research universities Stony Brook, university of Buffalo, university of Albany and Binghamton, as well as our academic medical centers. The NIH cuts for us would have meant losing about $79 million. But what's important is it's not money loss just to the institution, it's money loss to the research, and I'm talking about research on treatments for Alzheimer's, treatments for cancer.
Speaker 3:We have an NIH project that Stony Brook focused on 9-11 first responders and their treatment as they deal with illnesses connected to having been at ground zero. So when you walk away from that research, you are harming New Yorkers and you're harming the health and well-being of the country. So I'm glad that the courts have stepped in. The courts have also stepped in to protect teacher preparation grant programs that we have at the University of Buffalo. I'm hopeful that Congress will continue to stand up for research. You know, on the first Trump term he proposed in every budget huge cuts to federal research spending. But federal research spending went up over his first term and that's because Congress, in a bipartisan way, stood up for their constituents, and so the question is will they do that now?
Speaker 2:Well, that's money that goes to the economies of their districts. That's money that goes to feed technology, to feed jobs, to create economic development in their districts. So it's just amazing to me that there hasn't been more of a fight in Congress. But we'll see. We'll see how it all shakes out. I was talking with the former president of University of California, janet Napolitano, recently. I also was on a call with Michael Drake, who is now the president of University of California.
Speaker 2:I also was on a call with Michael Drake, who is now the president of the University of California, and just listening to them talk about the impact of research at a place like the UC, which is huge. It has a tremendous impact on not just the state of California but the entire world in the research that they do. But you have graduate students now questioning whether they should go into the research fields, not knowing whether there's going to be jobs. You have a hiring freeze in the University of California which just went into effect. This is having a chilling effect on the entire research community. And so, while we brag about and even the president brags about us being, you know, at the top of the list in research, having a lead in AI, all that is going to go to waste and we're going to fall back tremendously because of this lack of capacity for doing the research that fuels our technology prominence in the world. So we'll see how it all shakes out, but I'm a little bit concerned about what this is going to mean downstream.
Speaker 3:Definitely, look at our international competitors, whether it's economic competitors or the competitors for influence around the world. They're laughing at us, right? They see this as the United States unilaterally giving up its incredible advantage in the innovation economy. It's crazy, to be honest, to have this kind of willful dismantling of our competitive advantage. If we're worried about keeping up with China in areas like semiconductors or artificial intelligence, the thing that would most undermine our ability to keep up with them is dismantling the research function in our university.
Speaker 2:And I'm sure the people who would just assume that you and I are having a woke conversation. But this is an economic conversation. This is a national security conversation. That has nothing to do with wokeness. This has everything to do with the health of our economies and our position in the globe. To my colleagues who may consider this a woke conversation, I'd say take a look at the economic impact that some of these cuts are going to have and then come back and talk to me.
Speaker 2:So, john, let's talk about some of your experiences and how they center you in terms of what's going on in the country these days. You've had a unique set of experiences as an educator. You mentioned spending time in high schools. You have been the Secretary of Education under President Obama, so you have a little bit of knowledge of the Department of Education. You've led a major advocacy organization at the Ed Trust, and now you lead one of the nation's largest public higher education systems in SUNY. So, given all of this experience and the recent news about the administration's plans to dismantle the Department of Education, what's your advice to Secretary McMahon and how would you argue for the slowing down and the rethinking of a plan to dismantle the Department of Education?
Speaker 3:Yeah, look, I think she needs to demonstrate some real moral courage here and it's never easy to tell your boss that their idea is terrible but she ought to go to the president and Elon Musk and tell them to stop because what they're doing is so harmful to the well-being of students and families. I'll tell you why. The education department really has four main functions. The Education Department really has four main functions. One, sending resources to help vulnerable students. The Title I program that helps students in low-income schools. The Individuals with Disabilities Education Act funding that helps provide services for students with disabilities. Undermining those activities will make America weaker. It will make our students less successful. Second major function is Pell Grants that help low-income students access higher education and the student loan system that makes higher education possible for low and middle-income Americans. Without those systems functioning well, we undermine the future health of our economy. If we need nurses, if we need technicians on the floor of the advanced manufacturing site, if we need computer scientists, if we need architects and engineers, we need folks to be able to go to college and if we dismantle those systems that make college possible, we harm our future. Third function is civil rights protection, and that's crucial. I always point out to folks.
Speaker 3:You look at that famous Norman Rockwell painting of Ruby Bridges integrating schools in New Orleans. You see little Ruby Bridges in the center, but she is escorted by federal marshals because the state and district did not want to provide her with opportunity. And, sally, that is still true in many places. States and districts, for a variety of reasons, are not delivering fairness. They are not providing students with what they need because of race or religion or gender, and so the department needs to be able to step in. You can't walk away from that.
Speaker 3:And then the last function is around data and research and transparency. How will we know where we're doing well and where we're struggling if we don't have data? How will we be able to understand what's necessary to help students succeed if we aren't doing research? So I would hope that Secretary McMahon would have the personal fortitude to have the hard conversation with folks and say you know now that I better understand what actually happens at the department. This mindless dismantling is wrong for the country. Now I'm not very optimistic that that'll happen, but that's what should happen, right.
Speaker 2:Well, we'll see how it all shakes out. I do hold out some hope that the Secretary will see enhancing some of the value that comes out of the Department of Education, but we'll see. On solutions for Congress and for the administration. You and I both participate with another former Secretary of Education, margaret Spelling, on the Bipartisan Policy Center's Commission on the American Workforce. So I think that many of us see some opportunities here. I mean, given the focus on working class Americans and giving them better opportunities in the economy that's being created by AI, going forward, seizing the opportunity to focus on improving the connection between education and employment all those things that are frustrating people in America about our post-secondary system and being more transparent and creating more value for learners and their families. So what are some of the opportunities that you see, given all the challenges that we're facing?
Speaker 3:A couple of things come immediately to mind. I think we could be doing more to provide folks with access to short-term programs that lead to good economic opportunities for them. There's been a bipartisan conversation about short-term Pell, allowing students in those shorter-term programs to access Pell Grants to pay for them. That could be a good thing if the guardrails are right, if the programs are well-designed in partnership with employers, if there's real accountability, that the programs lead to actual earnings improvement for the participants and can translate over the long-term into credits and an entry point to a higher education degree the right guardrails that could be a real winning bipartisan policy innovation Another area is actually doing the opposite of what the administration has signaled so far and doubling down on research.
Speaker 3:We actually could be at the very edge of a golden age in research advances, when you think about how we might be able to leverage AI and broader data science to finally find a cure to cancer, to have a strategy to treat and maybe prevent Alzheimer's and dementia the numbers of folks suffering with those conditions growing exponentially. We could reverse that. The opportunity that we have to figure out rapid advances in renewable energy to help us protect the environment, the opportunity we have with areas like planta to actually get ahead of our international competitors. To actually get ahead of our international competitors. So what we should be doing as a country is coming together in a bipartisan way and saying for the long-term health of Americans, for our long-term national security, we're going to make big bets on major advances in research. Those are areas where there used to be bipartisan consensus and maybe we can get back to it Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's certainly the hope that we get back to that consensus and build a federal infrastructure that supports the kind of innovation and workforce of tomorrow that we need in order to continue to be a thriving country. Now you also have, as part of the SUNY system, an institution that focuses on New Yorkers that may not have had a great experience of post-secondary education right off the bat, an institution that focuses on adult working learners In Empire State University. I had the privilege of speaking to the president of Empire State not too long ago. How are you thinking about serving those New Yorkers that were not able to access SUNY right off the bat and are now in the workforce?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm glad you talked with Lisa Willendorf because she's doing a great job and what Empire State makes possible is a very flexible schedule for students because it's asynchronous, intensive advising and support.
Speaker 3:They do a great job with prior learning, assessment and evaluating if you know you've done training through your union, if you've gotten training through the military, how that can be used for credit. They also are very good at helping students put together the credits they may have earned if they started school and dropped out, or maybe they've gone to a couple different schools and gotten credits over the years. Empire State helps them compile those so that they have a realistic plan to a degree that is going to help them in the economy. And Empire State most recently launched our first bachelor's degree entirely in Spanish, which we're very excited about A bachelor's in business administration that students can do entirely in Spanish. Now, over time, there may be students who do some of it in Spanish and some of it in English, but we're excited about the possibility that folks in New York, around the country, internationally, will be able to access this opportunity at Empire State.
Speaker 2:That sounds great. Now let me ask you one more question as we begin to wrap up, given your experiences, not just there at SUNY, but in your various roles that you've had, and given the inflection point that we find ourselves in for higher education because I do think that this is definitely an inflection point it has caused some needed self-reflection and it also has caused us to really think about how we defend the great work that we do. Given all of that, what would be your advice to an up-and-coming leader in higher education, someone who wants to take the reins as president or chancellor of a college or a system right now?
Speaker 3:Two things. One is make sure you have a community of peers that you can rely on. You know, you and I have been friends a long time. It's wonderful to be able to have colleagues whose advice you trust, who will help you think through hard issues, give you honest feedback, so create that community. The second thing is I think we have to be obsessed in the sector with demonstrating value, and that means, at a minimum, folks come to school thinking it's going to help them in the economy. That's true across lines of race and class, and so we have to deliver on that.
Speaker 3:At SUNY, one of the things we're trying to do is we have a goal of an internship paid internship for every undergraduate, and we have a long way to go to achieve that goal, but we're trying to grow those as quickly as possible because we want every student, whether they're majoring in engineering or sociology, to have that paid internship experience that sets them up for career success.
Speaker 3:We also, I think, when we were talking about demonstrating value, we have to work on our civic value. Are we preparing students to participate in civic life? We have something in New York modeled on something in California. It's called the Empire State Service Corps. We have 500 students who are paid to do 300 hours a year of public service work tutoring, environmental work, addressing food and housing insecurity, serving as peer mental health counselors and they are learning the joy of serving others. They're working alongside people who are different from them, they're making a little money, which is helping make college more affordable, and they're learning to be the kinds of participants in civic life that public higher ed was meant to prepare. So that obsession with demonstrating value, I think is really important for up-and-coming leaders.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that's great advice. I hope our listeners are paying attention and I just want to say thanks, john, for one, your service to higher education for all these years and for being honest, open and transparent about what we, as educators, should be doing right now. So thanks for joining me here on the RAND podcast. Thank you.
Speaker 3:And thanks for being such a great friend, mentor and role model.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you, john, and to our listeners, thanks for joining us here on the RAND Podcast. You've been listening to my conversation with Chancellor John King. He's Chancellor of the State University of New York, doing a tremendous job there, and if you're following us here on YouTube, subscribe, continue to follow us, and if you're listening to us on audio, continue to follow us on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for joining us, everybody, and we'll see you all soon. Thank you.
