The Rant Podcast
A bi-weekly podcast focused on pulling back the curtain on the American higher education system and breaking down the people, the policies and the politics. The podcast host, Eloy Ortiz Oakley, is a known innovator and leader in higher education. The podcast will not pull any punches as it delves into tough questions about the culture, politics and policies of our higher education system.
The Rant Podcast
Public-Private Partnerships As A Path To Economic Mobility with Fernando Bleichmar
What if the ROI debate could be settled with simple math and clear outcomes? We open the year by pulling apart the “enrollment cliff” narrative and focusing on what actually moves learners forward: affordable, workforce-aligned online programs with measurable value. Our guest, Risepoint CEO Fernando Bleichmar, shares Ipsos data showing average tuition around $20,000, first-year salary gains near $13,000, and compounding earnings growth by year three—plus a surprising stat that more than half of surveyed graduates took no loans.
We talk through how regional universities can compete with mega players by designing for the modern learner and linking tightly to local employers. That means building programs around real demand, offering flexible formats, and telling a sharper story to the community. We dig into practical services that make a difference—analytics to spot melt, PR to reach the right audiences, and student experience tools that support persistence—so presidents and deans can focus on teaching and outcomes.
AI gets the “human in the loop” treatment here. Faculty can use generative tools to accelerate course design and free up time for high-impact interactions. Marketing adapts as search behavior changes and AI answers reshape discovery. And along the student journey, technology handles speed and personalization while people step in at moments that matter. We also unpack the policy landscape: long-standing federal clarity on public-private partnerships and emerging state frameworks that prioritize transparency and accountability.
If you care about economic mobility, regional strength, and real outcomes for working adults, this conversation offers a grounded playbook: start with ROI, build programs for the learners you have, connect to employers, use AI wisely, and measure everything. Subscribe, share with a colleague who needs a fresh strategy, and leave a review to tell us what you want to hear next.
https://risepoint.com/
https://risepoint.com/student-roi/
eloy@4leggedmedia.com
Hi, this is Eloy Ortiz Oakley and welcome back to the Rant Podcast, the podcast where we pull back the curtain and break down the people, the policies, and the politics of our higher education system. Happy New Year, everyone. Welcome to 2026. Glad to be back here on the Rant Podcast with all of you. This is our third year, and I can't wait for another year of great guests and great topics. The world continues to be a crazy place these days, so I'm sure there will be plenty to talk about in 2026. I hope that 2026 is off to a great start for all of you. It's certainly off to a great start here at the Rant Podcast. Today we have another great guest to kick off the new year. His name is Fernando Bleichmar. He is the CEO of Rise Point. Fernando has been on the podcast before. He was with us about 18 months ago, talking about some of the things that were going on at Rise Point and the OPM marketplace, and so much has changed since then. A lot has changed over those 18 months, and we have a lot to talk about, a lot of catch up to do. RisePoint has been going on an incredible journey of supporting colleges and universities throughout the country, opening up access to quality online programs of study for thousands of students throughout America. We'll also focus on return on investment. Fernando and his team have been focused on showing value, showing value in the work that they're doing and the support that they're giving to their partner colleges and universities in the way that they are creating a return on that investment. Not only for the student, but for the college and the university that's partnering with Rise Point. We'll talk about their partnership with Ipsos that does an annual ROI survey of their students and the amazing work that they're doing to create that ROI. We'll also talk about the changes that are happening, the new needs that colleges and universities are expressing. And of course, like with every other conversation these days, we'll talk about the impact of AI on their services and how it's changing the way they partner with colleges and universities. But before we get into all that, let me once again say thank you to all of our listeners. Happy New Year to you all. This is proving to be yet another crazy year across the globe and here in America. There will be a lot to talk about in 2026. So much continues to change, so much continues to divide us. And I'd like to begin the year by just saying let's keep our eyes on the prize. And when I mean the prize, I mean creating greater opportunities for Americans of all backgrounds throughout this country. Building a more resilient American dream for everybody, because that American dream feels so far out of reach for so many Americans. Certainly that's true here in California, where we're trying to reimagine and rebuild the California dream. So many people feel disenfranchised, they feel like they've lost touch. Regardless of what political party you stand behind. What we know today is that people are frustrated. And higher education, a great postsecondary experience, should be one of those levers, one of those steps to create greater opportunity. Instead, a great portion of the American public feels that that dream is no longer obtainable and that higher education is no longer the greatest step to get there. We need to recapture that. We need to reimagine the way that we serve learners across this country. This is an opportunity for us. In all of this chaos, we can reimagine and recreate America's higher education system to put learners at the center. Particularly those learners who don't have the opportunity to go to a college or a university right out of high school. Particularly for those learners that are working day in and day out two, three jobs at a time, trying to make ends meet in this ever-changing economy, in this ever-changing workforce. This is our opportunity to put them at the center. These are true Americans, working class Americans that need access to a great post-secondary experience so that they can have access to the American dream and here in California to the California dream. So, with that backdrop, please join me in my conversation with Fernando Bleichmar, the CEO of Rice Point. Fernando, welcome back to the Rant Podcast. Thank you for having me back. Been a while. Yes, it's been a while. Feels like a million years. A lot has been changing, but thanks for doing this. This is your second time back on the Rant Podcast, and thanks for Rice Point's support of the Rant Podcast, first and foremost. Let's just start with how have you been and how have you been surviving the last, I don't know, it's been at least a year since you and I last spoke.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks again for having me. You're right. It's been a lot over it's been 18 months since we last talked. And a lot of things have changed, as you can imagine, including who we are. We're rebranded as Rice Point as after we acquired the Wiley University business. And basically, what has not changed is our commitment to help university partners and their students reach new heights. And that was the whole idea of the Rise Point brand was that every student has this inflection moment, this moment of a rise point, and that we can help universities get to their rise points and help students achieve theirs. We have more than 100 university partners now supporting thousands of students in their education journey. So it's a very exciting time for the company for sure. We continue to see a lot of demand for online programs as long as they're high ROI, workforce focused, linked to employers. But we're also changing a lot the services we provide. We have been in an evolution of who we are to expand more and more services to universities. So to give you a couple of examples, we've done a lot on product innovation, helping universities of how do we think about what new products we need to offer. A lot of work on analytics, things like melt indicators and how do you tell which students are at risk. Areas like PR. A lot of the universities we work with don't know how to do PR. So we provide PR as a service and help them tell their story into different communities. So a lot going on in terms of the services we provide. And then on the middle of this a year and a half ago, when we talked, we didn't even talk about AI. And now obviously AI is front and center, and we're doing a lot with our university partners of how we help them with AI in really three areas. One is how do they design and deliver education? So we call that the product. Two is how do you reach new students, given that marketing is changing significantly. And then three is how can you use technology to help students have a better experience through their journey from interest to enroll and then from enroll to program completion. So we are still very focused on helping regional universities succeed and compete with the mega universities, but the services that you need to bring and the technology and the capabilities you need to bring is always increasing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I can only imagine how much it's increased. And perhaps the next time you and I get together, my AI agent will interview your AI agent. That's how fast it's moving.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, it's moving really fast. At the same time, we all of our work suggests that you really want that human in the loop contact and that students really need to talk, whether it's with someone to support them in discovery or in enrollment or in application or in their classes, at the moments that really matter for them. And that's something that has become a lot more nuanced, which is don't think of it as AI or non-AI, think of it as what part of that student journey needs human time and dedication, and then what doesn't, and also how can technology help create efficiency? So we're we're helping faculty in some course developments. It used to take faculty 50 hours to think through a course, it can now take three hours. That's time they can spend then really one-on-one with their students, which is where they want to spend time and where the students want to spend time. So really exciting moment for sure.
SPEAKER_00:It is an exciting moment, and there's been tremendous change, as you've alluded to, not only in the opium marketplace, and we can talk about all the changes in the opium marketplace since we last spoke, but also just in the entire higher education marketplace, from the changes that have been brought on by technology that you just mentioned, and we'll get into a little bit more later, but also the changes from the new administration, all the demands on higher education leaders these days. So a lot has been happening. How have you and your team at Rice Point been adapting to all these changes in such a short period of time?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, look, I we start with the basics, which is the product good. And by product, we mean the product that our partners offer to the students. And a good product means that it has that it's tailored to the evolution of the learner. And we can we'll talk a little bit about the modern learner, but also that it has the right returns and it has the right ROI. And then is the product we offer to our university partners so that they can offer their product good. And I think fundamentally the product on both ends is really important. And it's critical what we do for universities, and it's critical what universities do for students if you fundamentally believe in this regional university linked to community model, which I fundamentally believe in. So through all the changes, through, and I'm sure we'll talk a little bit about the different changes, that's what we keep at the center, which is how are we helping our partners deliver better product and better value and better ROI to their students? As long as you don't lose that core true north, you navigate a lot of changes on an ongoing basis, but that's the part that can never change, which is the value that the product creates.
SPEAKER_00:And you mentioned a couple of terms that I want to spend some time talking about. ROI, return on investment, creating value for your learners. And today's higher education marketplace, because it continues to evolve in many ways, the partnerships that every college and university has continues to evolve as well because there is such tremendous demand for good partners in the higher education marketplace. I know the higher education leaders I talk to, they, particularly the public regional universities, some of the smaller privates, they're competing in an ever-changing marketplace, and they need partners to help them with the expertise that they need, whether it's producing better online content, being able to attract more students outside of the brick and mortar of their institutions, competing with the Western Governors Universities or the UMGCs of the world, uh, and just keeping up with all of those demands, and then also dealing with this notion of an enrollment cliff, which we can talk more about later. But one of the biggest changes I've seen is this drive toward greater value, economic mobility, being able to highlight the return on investment both for the institution and for the programs of study. We just saw the release of the legislation that created the federal framework for accountability. Department of Education is about to go into negotiated rulemaking to come out with what that's going to look like. So not only is return on investment and value a central theme now in terms of how we have to be thinking about higher education, but it's now part of the accountability standard. An institution could lose federal loan dollars for their programs of study if they don't show value in that program. Given that there is this drive, and certainly my day job at College Futures, we published several reports on higher education institutions here in California, both in terms of their ROI for their programs of study and the economic mobility that they produce. So I know Rise Point has been looking at this as well. You've been partnering with Ipsos. You recently published your latest ROI survey of the online programs that you support. Tell us about that survey and what is that survey telling you about the online programs that you support what your partner institutions?
SPEAKER_01:I think this is a really important topic. And look, I don't think accountability and ROI are new, but I think and I don't think they're a partisan issue. And I don't think that the rate of debt for higher education versus the results in many areas was sustainable. So I think it's a very welcome conversation to that's been going on for a while, but now I it feels like there's more and more like direct metrics and accountability frameworks, which I think is a good thing. We started three years ago, we started by saying, look, we talk a lot about affordability of the programs that our partners deliver. We focus on delivering workforce-ready, affordable programs with our partner universities. But let's measure the return on investment for those students. And let's not do it ourselves, let's find a third party that can do it. So, this is our third year partnering with Ipsos, which is a very well-known market research firm. They interview around 5,000 graduates of Rise Point supported programs, so significant number. And then we basically say for me, the easiest way to measure return on investment is how much should you pay for something and how much do you get out of it? And what we saw is that the average tuition of the programs we support is around$20,000. And the salary increase by the graduates of those programs one year after graduation is around$13,000, just the increase. So that means that you're able to pay back your program with just your salary increases in around one and a half years. But also, we're now doing it every year. So we ask people, how does it continue to grow? Because it's not just about the one-time bomb. But what we're seeing is that three years after graduation, that salary increase is now 30%. So that for me is what we mean by ROI. Now there will be many definitions, but this is a very simple one. It's someone that I think everybody can understand. And then the other two things that I'll mention of that study that I think are really important. One is over 50% of students did not take a loan at all. So it doesn't increase debt. That's a lot of it is because we serve working adults in mostly graduate programs, but a lot of it is because of affordability. If the program is$20,000, your likelihood of needing a loan is very different than if it's five times that. So for me, I am very proud of those results. I am very proud of the partners we work with to deliver those results and of the students that we support. But I think to your question, what do these numbers indicate for me? Is that if you focus on the right programs for the right students, then you can deliver very high value product, very high value ROI, and very impactful results for students and the communities. At this point in Rise Point's history, we've we've served over 750,000 students. So if you take 750,000 students and you multiply it by$30,000,$40,000 of increased economic annual gains for each one of those people and the impact they have on their communities, all of a sudden that this is the impact of education. So we're very proud, but we're also very vigilant that we continue to stay very focused on that ROI and that drives all the decisions we make.
SPEAKER_00:That's a great point because you mentioned several great points. First of all, I want to make sure that we don't just slide by the a couple of points that you made. One is that most of your students are playing, paying somewhere around$20,000 for a program of study. That is considerably affordable these days in the marketplace. We're not talking about$80,000,$100,000, where a lot of people believe that's the kinds of programs that the OPM marketplace has been serving. But you're serving and partnering with institutions that provide affordable access to a large number of Americans throughout this country. The fact that the ROI is about a year and a half, that's a tremendous ROI, regardless of how you look at it. So I would assume that this really plays well and supports the mission of many of your partner institutions. How do they respond when they see this ROI report?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, look, our partner institutions, everybody gets into education because of the impact that they want to have on students, on communities. So whether you're a president, whether you're in the cabinet, whether you're a dean, a faculty member, at the end of the day. You want to make sure that your institution and that your team is delivering high value to the community and to students. So I think, first of all, our partners are very proud of those results. There are two key things in their minds right now. One is growth, right? How do I make sure I grow my impact? How do I make sure I grow my enrollments? And then the second is evolution because of all of this technology, et cetera. But when they see these results, what is for them is a reaffirmation that the model works. And every time I go into a potential new partner, what I always say is there is this fallacy of demand out there, which is people say there is not enough students, there is not enough demand. Every time we've gone with the right programs into the right market, with our expertise, with the right scale, we have had tremendous success in any state that you can mention. And what we see is when a regional university is not playing, all of that demand is going out of state and it's going to for-profits and national universities. But when you talk to the actual students, they actually would prefer to work with their regional, with their local universities.
SPEAKER_00:They know that institution. They know it.
SPEAKER_01:And if you're working in a hospital, your boss also might have gone there, or they know it, your patients know it, you're part of the community. So what we use this is as a way to show to our existing partners, new partners, of there is a lot of demand, there is value, but the programs have to be focused on what we call the mother learner. And the mother learner is very flexible, they're very busy, they move seamlessly in the digital world, they sometimes might move between on-ground, online, back and forth, and they have very high expectations of ROI. And as long as you build your programs anchoring on that modern learner, and that you know how to find those modern learners and talk to those modern learners and get them into your programs, the success is there for the taking for sure.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. We hear so much these days. Every meeting I'm in, either in DC or in State Capitol here in Sacramento, or in conversations I have with higher education leaders, you hear time and time again about the enrollment cliff. And I think this has become such a damaging narrative, particularly to broad access institutions like community colleges or four-year regionals, even to the smaller private nonprofit liberal arts colleges. In my mind, there is no enrollment cliff. There is a huge pool of potential enrollment. We just haven't tapped into the imagination to go after that enrollment. Full disclosure, I spend time with Western Governors University. I serve on their board. And it's just amazing to me to see the juxtaposition with how Western governors views enrollment and the California State University System views enrollment. Two very different ways. And the California State University System is struggling to figure out how to grow enrollment, particularly in its far north institutions. WGU has a hard time figuring out how to deal with all the enrollment it gets. Yes. Two very different experiences. And to your point, it is the flexibility, the willingness to figure out ways to reach those learners. In my mind, there is an infinite number of learners in the marketplace, and we just need to leverage innovation, leverage technology, and leverage imagination to reach them. So how do you help your partner institutions reach those learners?
SPEAKER_01:I think it's a great point that California, I think the number of people in California that are doing online education with out-of-state institutions is over 100,000 students. So California institutions should look at those students as enrollments. They're just enrollments that because the California institutions don't know how to serve them well, they're going someplace else. So the to answer your question, we find I fundamentally believe we bring three things to our partners. We bring expertise. So a lot of what you talk about is change management is how do you do this? How do you set up your organization to succeed? What do you offer? How do you offer it? So we bring expertise, we bring capital, but launching these things, Western governors has a lot of funds. So they you have to be able to compete with Western governors or Arizona State or University of Phoenix. So we bring capital and then and then what and then we bring the expertise, the capital, and the know-how of how to tailor it to a very particular market. So it's not just about, hey, what do we do with AI? It's how do I serve this market where I have a military, a large ex-military population, or I have a large Hispanic population, or I have a large industrial gap from employers. So how do you tailor your education? Because the education of every institution should be very tailored to that local community. So those are the three things that we bring. And that's why everything starts for us with every partner is unique, and we think about what are the differentiations, what are the advantages of that particular partner, and how do we help them get to the maximum of their potential? A lot of the times the barriers are internal. We're not used to doing this. And then, and I think we can help with that, but it also takes leadership, it takes alignment on the university. I was recently in a panel, and I was sitting next to the provost of Western Governors and the head of education for open AI. And the panel was about AI. So the provost of Western Governors talked about amazing things that they're doing. And then the Open AI person talked about the new models and so forth. And I said, my job is to grab that future that you're hearing and to bring it to the rest of us, which is the regional universities. Because if they say the future is already here, it's just not evenly distributed. So what we're trying to do is say, hey, we can build bring the scale and the expertise and the technology to all of our different partners because none of them can do it by themselves. And I think this is where there's a legacy narrative of all universities can do just do these things themselves. And I think 20 plus years have proven that some might, but most need help. And that's fine because they're great at teaching and they're great at helping students, and that's what they can focus on, and we can help support the rest that enables that.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. Uh, as you first of all, let me ask you this for our listeners who are interested in grabbing your latest ROI report and reading more about what you found. Where can they find it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's on the website, it's on the RisePoint.com website. We publish it every year, so you can look at previous years, the ROI report. We also publish another piece which is called The Voice of the Online Learner, which is a survey of online learners and modern learners, some that are supported by RisePoint programs, but many that are not. And there's also really good data about how online learners are changing their needs, their discovery, their views on AI. So both of those materials are on the website.
SPEAKER_00:Great. And I will put a link to the report and the Rise Point website in the notes section of this podcast. Now, as you think about helping bring the latest innovations and technology to bear for the institutions that you partner with and helping them reach more learners through quality online programs of study, how are you and your team thinking about leveraging generative AI or other innovations, technology innovations, to continue to improve the ROI for learners?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's embedded into everything that we are doing internally. So we're in the middle of a fundamental transformation of saying, how do we do everything different given technology, but always with an eye to and how do we bring it to our partners? And we don't have a philosophy that says we are the ones that have to invent it. We just have a philosophy of saying we are the ones that can help our partners implement it at scale, and some partners don't need us for that or for certain areas, and that's fine. And some partners will need us, I will help them. But again, if you start with this foundational principle of our job is to help our partners be successful on building, launching, and attracting students to the right online programs, technology can play across all of those things. What should I offer? How do I embed learning about AI on my business program? So there's a lot of questions on product and offering and the education that we have a team that can help faculty and can help universities, but then they also rely on us on saying, hey, search terms are down 50%. 50% of people don't click on a link anymore because it's all in AI. How are gonna students discovering my offering? So that's where we that's what is our secret sauce, and where we spend a lot of our time on how technology can help on marketing, how technology can help on guiding students through the enrollment and application process. And then also we're spending more time on how do we help with technology students after that. Because remember, our business model is dependent not just on enrolling students, but on students succeeding. Because we charge on per as the student progresses. So the interests are very aligned. The university wants the students to succeed, we want the students to succeed, and the students want to succeed. So more and more we're starting to say, hey, what are we seeing? What are the latest technologies? What can we be building, or others can be building that can help our partners scale on the student success side as well? Our advantage is we have 100 partners, so we see a lot, and we have the scale that we can invest at a higher scale than any individual university can.
SPEAKER_00:From that set of partners and other potential partners that you talk to in the field, do you still see increasing demand for more online offerings? And two, what are some of the other challenges that your partners are asking for help with?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we definitely see the demand. As you and I discussed, there's so much on top demand. It just takes creativity, it takes innovation. How the employers get involved in the funding, sourcing of education and the connections between employers and students is still very early on, surprisingly, but it's still very early on. Uh, all these new types of models, externship, internships, apprenticeships, stackables, pathways, all of that has been talked for a long time, but it's still infancy in a way. And there's so many students with some education that want to complete the education they need for the next job. But it has to be tailored on that, not on the traditional 18-year-old undergrad on a four-year program. Now there's a role for universities for that population, but a lot of the demand is happening on the some college degree or on the working adults or on the even people that have a master's and now need to reskill. So that's where a lot of the demand is happening. What we are spending more and more time with our universities is on helping them think through what is their role in their community, in their local demand, and how they're going to differentiate. It used to be that if you offered an MBA online that was sufficient because there was enough people that wanted an online MBA, that doesn't work anymore. The market has evolved, like every market evolved. But if you have the right degree linked to the right student population and the right employer population, it's actually super powerful because there is a ton of unmet needs.
SPEAKER_00:Now, let me ask you one last question as we begin to wrap up. Given all the things that you do to help support institutions, create access for learners across this country, and do it in a quality way, we still see a lot of skeptics in the marketplace, particularly in several states throughout the country, that I'm sure you've come across in your travels or heard concerns from some circles. How do you respond to those in some states throughout the country that still feel that organizations like yourself? And I realize that the OPM marketplace, and I hope we come up with a better term than OPMs because it lumps everybody together in some weird soup that's stained by some uh organizations who used to be in the marketplace. But how do you respond to the concerns that you hear from consumer advocate organizations or some state legislatures on what OPM should or shouldn't be doing?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So first of all, we think of ourselves a little bit more broader than it. We think of ourselves as an education technology and services company, especially because we're adding so many new services and so many new uses of technology that I think it I just think it reduces what our partners need from us and what we can offer to our partners. But what I think what's really interesting on this whole dialogue is I think most people have come to understand and strongly believe that these are hard problems to solve and that public-private partnerships are really important to solve these type of problems. Just no one is asking a regional university to build their own LMS. Right? Now there was a day 40 years ago when the idea was like, shouldn't a regional university also do that? And then it said, no, someone should build the software and then someone should think about how to teach with it, and that's where we draw the distinction. So I think more and more there's an understanding that public-private partnerships are needed. In the narrative, what's really interesting is that university leaders are, and especially our clients of regional universities, are very vocal that they need the help. And they're very vocal at the state level, at the federal level, of saying, let me figure out what partner I bring to help me deliver on my mission and judge me for my outcomes, judge me for the ROI, judge me for how much economic mobility I create, judge me for what's the rate of debt of the students I serve, etc. So the more we have conversations at the outcome level, and the less we argue about technicalities of how public and private universities work together, I think it's beneficial for everyone. I think at the federal level, in my mind, because it's been 35 years now since the congressional framework since 1992, it also got reaffirmed recently by the last administration. It has been reaffirmed by many federal courts. So in our minds, at the federal level, the case is closed. There is no more conversation about OPMs, et cetera, at the federal level. And I don't think it's just this administration. The last administration was very clear that the construct that's been in place for over 35 years is the right construct. So what's interesting that's happening is there's a lot of discussion now about moving education closer to the states. And we work with regional universities who understand how important that linkage to the state and to policymakers is for them. But in many areas, state leaders are not as aware or were not as aware as federal leaders were of the nuances of how we work, et cetera. So I think there's a lot of thinking through at the state level: how does this work? What does it mean? And exploring are there frameworks that need to be created. To be clear, we are all for frameworks that increase transparency, that provide clarity, accountability. All of that makes a ton of sense. And a recent example that we thought was really good was Ohio legislation that just passed. We're very comfortable with it and we're very supportive of it. Because what's most important for us is that there's a clear framework on which to operate. Right. And that our university partners and us know exactly the rules of the game. So we're very supportive of states looking at it. We obviously have strong points of view of what works best for our university partners, as do they. So I think it's really good that we're now there's clarity at the federal level and it's done. And now we're having state-by-state conversations. Every state is a bit different. Every constituency is a bit different. Every regional is a bit different. So I think it's a very rich and nuanced conversation. And we're feeling good about the regulatory landscape. And we think it's the right conversations to be having at this time.
SPEAKER_00:I couldn't agree with you more, Fernando. I think these are the right conversations and transparency, accountability are key. They're key for partners like yourself, they're key for the colleges and universities that partner with you. And it's all key to ensure that the learners that are participating in programs of study know what value they're getting. Yes. And so I think for all those reasons, I think you're right. And I appreciate the work that you and your team are doing to continue to push these narratives forward. So listen, I really appreciate you coming back on the Ramp Podcast. I think it's been a great conversation. I'll put more information about Rise Point in the notes section of this podcast. Our listeners can read more about what's been going on with the ROI work that you're doing, with the work that you're doing with your partners. So, Fernando, thank you for being on the Ramp Podcast. Oh, my pleasure, Eli, and great seeing you as always. All right. You've been listening to my conversation with Fernando Lekmar, the CEO of Rice Point. Like I said, I'll put more information in the comment section about where to get more information about Rice Point and the IPSOS survey that they do annually. If you are watching us on YouTube, please hit subscribe, continue to follow us. And if you're listening to us on your favorite podcast platform, download our episodes and continue to follow us. Thanks for listening, everybody, and we will see you all soon.
